Saturday, November 8, 2008

Unveiling the New Apostolic Reformation

I keep a "Google ear" to the ground for anything dealing with the New Apostolic Reformation. The other day I ran across the above video by Bruce Wilson. I don't know who he is but from his site I see he was trying to discredit Sarah Palin by her ties to the NAR. That is not my reason for posting it today. I refuse to believe that she was a subversive attack of the NAR to take over the White House. (Honestly, I'm convinced that they would ultimately use a wealthy man instead.) I do think that once she had been named they probably gleefully decided that God was for them.

But I want you to listen to this video. Here is - in a nutshell - what they teach and preach. Even if I disagree with the intent of the video (to discredit Palin) I think it is a brilliant piece to expose what is being taught in these churches. Yes, it useses a large portion of a man's sermon who then layed hands on Sarah and prayed for her, but I have heard these very words and prayers in my own Church Left Behind. Exactly. Word for Word. If it was what I was taught in my group of 70 people in central Pennsylvania, you can be sure it is being taught from the top down.

Mr. Wilson is not pulling out of context anything that I could see. They actually say these things.

I cried while I watched it. Especially when Cindy Jacobs stated that the world will look at the wealth of the Church and be convinced. Oh My God!

To those of the NAR or thinking of belonging:

Watch this video and then BY YOURSELF pick up the Bible and read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and tell me if what you have seen in ANY WAY reflects what Jesus taught. Don't just look at individual verses that your leaders are giving you to back up their false claims. Read the whole the book was meant to be read.


Sarah said...

Hi Barb, I don't know the exact nature of her relationship to NAR, but Sarah Palin is at least relationally tied to them. I received an email from an NAR "apostle" in Alaska (whom I used to know through other ministry endeavors) regarding prayer for Palin. The email communicated that Sarah was a part of this "apostle's" regular prayer meeting, and NAR believed her to be an "Esther" for such a time as this. And asked for prayer accordingly. So, while her ties to NAR may not be official - there is at least a relational tie. Ironically, receiving that email helped inform my voting decision (for better or for worse).

Although I'm sure that Palin is a wonderful lady and seems very real and sincere, I do not wish to see someone who embraces dominion theology in the highest positions of power in America.

Barb said...

Sarah, I understand and agree totally. My point is I doubt if this was the supreme plan of the NAR to elect Sarah as their representative. But I do admit that she may certainly believe all this stuff too. I know I did at one time.

Tyler Dawn said...

Groan..... I just lost my dinner. I used to read the books and prophecies of all of these people. Gosh, I sure have trouble judging anyone who does buy this because God sure had to yank me out of this the hard way. If He hadn't decided to open my eyes, I might be on a stage like that right now.

I think Sarah Palin was like any of us would have been -- very honored to be chosen for such an annointing/preyer/whatever. I would have done it just four or five years ago!!

heck, I would have put it on my resume /rolleyes

Thanks for posting this -- all I can see is that these people have no clue as to what is really going on in this hour. Their minds are not on the things of God, though I know they sincerely think otherwise. God never called us to wealth.

Sarah said...

Sorry, Barb. Looks like I totally missed the point. :) I see what you're saying and agree with your assessment. (Both assessments: the NAR acceptance of Palin rather than promotion of her, and the unfortunate perversion of Jesus' teachings that NAR orthodoxy represents).

Anonymous said...

Come on guys, let beat them up. Lets blacken their names, tear them to pieces, so that when we find out one day that they are actually chosen children of Jesus, we will look like the real idiot. After all thats what Jesus taught is'nt it?

Please read the whole Bible including Romans where the writer said the world would be jealous of the wealth of God's people and would turn to Him.

Jesus also said, don't judge, just incase you are judged one day by the same measuring rod (my own paraphrase)

I do not agree with everthing these people teach, but that is Papa's problem. I guess I must have missed something in the video. ??

Tyler Dawn said...

Anonymous, please illuminate us -- I have been searching through the versions on Bible gateway and I have yet to find anything in the NT which even remotely refers to wealth in a positive way, and absolutely no reference in Romans whatsoever. Revelation talks about wealth a lot, all negative. Jesus talks about wealth a lot, almost always in a negative way.

It is fruitless to chastise someone with a bible verse that can only be alluded to, thus we have to trust that it exists and you are accurately using it.

Anonymous said...

Tyler Dawn, No, argue and I will not respond in the way you want me to. God's Word, His prophecies stand regardless of how we argue or beat up on other people. I had my turn in beating up the prophets and organisations that major on such teaching and I will not do it any more because my God does not do either and they are mostly right. I see a tiny, part of God's world, they see another tiny part, you see your small part, but God sees whole picture. He loves them.

Are you willing to challenge and destroy a work now, only to find our tomorrow that is was the work of the Holy Spirit?

Tyler Dawn said...

Again, I ask for the verse. It is a simple request, one I should think you would be willing to grant.

All I want is for you to supply the verse. Are you actually refusing to do that?

You asked us, nay challenged us to read the whole bible, Well I have, the whole thing, multiple times (even Leviticus and I think I have read Habakkuk at least 20). You assumed we had not. You, in my case, were absolutely wrong. i did it during my shameful legalistic phase when I felt I had to in order to be acceptable.

So once more, the verse please?

Anonymous said...

Anon, please post the scripture reference in Romans.

You were the one to initiate this discussion and reference Romans. Now, please get specific as to which passage/verse you are referring to. It seems the lack of this has bred confusion. And you don't want to be the author of that do you?

Papa won't mind.

Anonymous said...

Anon, I will go ahead and do it for you? The reference you are probably referring to is Rm. 11:12 where Paul mentions that "their loss means riches for the Gentiles"

If this is the case, this would be very sad of you to reference this as any who actually reads the context of the above verse will know/see that the "riches" in question is not money, but the grace and gospel that Israel closed it's heart towards.

I hope you are not referring to this as if you did, you've turned the grace and gospel (good news) of Jesus into nothing more than money. The good news is the grace of God to all who would turn to Him! Grace extended to any, free and without merit. To the rich and poor alike. The riches in this passage in not about $$$ in any way shape or form. Money changers see life from a different perspective and will reap that fruit.

I trust this is not what you were referring to.

In addition, I do not receive any spirit of blackening their eyes, etc as you say. I do see here exposing a false gospel of money.
For example, compare the words of Cindy Jacobs where she talked near the end of the video where the world will know we are X'ns by our wealth. (my summary), -VS- The scriptures where they say that the world will know we are X'ns by our love. (Jn 13:35) I for one would cling to John's words when Cindy's words are the opposite.

There is truth in some of the prosperity gospel, but it is not that God wants all X'ns to be rich.

I see Barb contending for the faith as Paul contended for the faith when the Galatians so quickly turned from a faith gospel to a works gospel. He challenged/judged it and fought. I see this in Barb. Not fists, but facts.

And, yes, this conversation could go much further: For example -
How the leader so quickly threw Todd B. under the bus and spun it to deny what they just said - damage control! to protect themselves and the image they are trying to create in the eyes of blind followers. Bottom line - when Todd threatened their wealth/image they quickly dismissed/judged/distanced/etc rather than give him the grace he so needed.
Or, I could give 25 other examples. But I would think after reading Barb's blog that even this is not the spirit of her blog.

a said...

Anon and Tyler, relax! Yes, you are all correct.

I believe the scripture which is being harkened to is Romans 11:10-13 "Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"

You have to read this in context of the way Paul wrote it. Paul refers to the Non-Jewish Christians as "Gentiles".

What Paul aludes to here is, in days to come, God will bless the "Gentiles" with such enormous riches which will cause the Jews to become jealous and thereby attract them to Christ. The issue here is that the "Gentiles" WILL become wealthy.

I believe that there are also OT references of that happening,(transfer of wealth) however I am not an OT student.

On the blog issue, I do however subscribe to the first annon's last sentence of no judging.

Tyler Dawn said...

New Anonymous, thank you so much for posting that verse. Nothing is more frustrating than not knowing that is being discussed.

Thank you also for your exposition on that, very illuminating :) Very good read, very clearly presented.

Anonymous said...

Fascinating post and necessary. For these is much confusion regarding the Kingdom of God that individuals such as these are perpetuating. I am a firm believer in being aware of what is touted as "truth" in the various halls of Christendom for we must contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

That said, I think there is a great misunderstanding about judgement in the body - as anon's post reveals. For although we cannot judge another's heart, we most certainly can and are commanded to judge both actions and doctrine.

Indeed, failure to do the later on the part of elders in the body has lead to much of the confusion, tyranny and emasculation proliferated by both the traditional clergy caste, and modern-day apostolic/prophetic reformation movement thing.

I have no problem with apostles or prophets. Nor am I averse to the idea of reformation. For there are some who are working the field authentically, affecting great furtherance of God's purpose in the earth. However, no personal revelation of prophecy can trump the scripture and for the sake of the gospel we are compelled to call into question that which seems to contradict, or worse, replace the revealed will and word of God.

So thanks Barb for giving voice to the truth in a consistently kind way.

Barb said...

Wow, this started quite a discussion both here and at Tyler Dawn's site. The only thing I have to add to the discussion is what I stated previously. I cried as I watched the video. There is a huge difference between discernment and judgement. Judgement - the wrong kind, sheds no tears.

I do not mean my words to carry a sense of this is what should happen to these people, only that they would repent of what they are saying and portray my God in a truthful way.

So much of what these people preach sounds so right. I just think that someone should know the whole story of what they preach before they sign any dotted line.

I do not wish to blacken their names...only get them to see that they have a false, twisted picture of our Father.

And the whole thing about judging lest we be judged? I have made it abundantly clear that I am open to the imput of others in my life to be corrected. I have repented when I found out I was wrong. I live what I preach.

Nick said...

I'm not sure if I said it here or somewhere else, but I wonder how they totally miss the point that Babylon - the empire that opposes God - is built on 7 mountains (!) why would anyone want to build something for God on the same foundations as that which opposes him...

Tyler Dawn said...

I think you are talking about the 7 hills of Rome? You know, the ones pictured on the euro that have the woman riding a beast over them? or something like that.

Nick said...

To be honest I don't really buy into the left behind-esque interpretations of Revelation. I was more referring to it in the symbolic sense, its clear that this group has a pretty lacking understanding of the Bible, that they would so clearly pick a prophetic characteristic of 'Babylon' as one of their big projects...

Did that make any sense?

Tyler Dawn said...

ok I looked it up and you are right, babylon on the 7 mountains. It has been maaany years since i cared about such things and misremembered lol

But yes, it is interesting.....

Rev. Randy said...

When I learned of the incorporation of a "new Melchizedek priesthood" in the NAR teaching, I had to do a double-take. I am an ex-Mormon, was a Melchizedek priesthood holder, married in the temple "for time and all eternity..." When Christ rescued me from that destructive mentality, through the preaching of the Word, I began to see the destructiveness of it. The Melchizedek ideology in the Mormon church was taken, part and parcel, from the pagan Freemasons! I can't help but think there are similar connotations in the NAR's adoption of the same terminology.