Tuesday, February 26, 2008

Prophetic Words - The Shaking Continues

Bill Hamon (one the main men in the New Apostolic Reformation movement) just posted a new prophetic word on the Elijah List yesterday. You can read the whole prophecy here.

In the prophecy he gives dates of the start of the third (and final) apostolic reformation. He even uses Daniel and the weeks and years to explain how he ends up at the right year. The year of 2008 is when he believes history will look back and declare the beginning of the Apostolic Reformation Age. Of course he is urging you to come together with him at his conference in March to see how to best align yourselves for this coming move.

The purpose seems chilling to me as he says here: This Reformation will bring about a paradigm shift in the goal and purpose of the Church. Most Evangelical and Pentecostal theologians see no purpose for the Church other than to win more souls to Christ so they are made ready for Heaven. Now we are receiving revolutionary, reformed thinking from the heart and mind of God. The expanded goal and vision of the Third Reformation Church is to co-labor with Christ in His passionate desire for the fulfillment of Revelation 11:15:
"...there were loud voices in Heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!
......It is the time to give all of our life and labor to be co-workers together with Christ in demonstrating and enforcing His Kingdom in all the earth. We will not cease until we can join the voices in Heaven victoriously, declaring that the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord Jesus and His anointed one, the Church.

(is it just me or do the words, "enforcing His Kingdom," scare you a little?)

What I want to know is why does something like this still rattle me? I read it today and cannot shake an effect it had on me. I feel that in so many ways, I start at ground zero and begin to question everything I have been through and learned in the past 10 months. I hear voices of, “what if I’m wrong.” “How can so many men be prophesying a false message? What if I’m messing with God’s stuff?” And to my shame I even have to battle the voice that asks if I’m committing the unpardonable sin of ascribing to man or the enemy that which is of God.

I know better. I can go through this prophecy and pick out the parts that scripture at least leaves it completely open to interpretation where there is no final word from itself what it means. I know that not EVERYONE on the planet is thinking this way. I know that even good men can prophesy wrong. I know, I know, I know!!!!

Then why do I not know? What is wrong with me?


Anonymous said...

It's the grandiosity of the vision, coupled with the zeal and authoritative tone with which they're delivered -- not to mention its resonance with the vision of your CLB -- that makes declarations like these so intoxicating/rattling.

May the Lord teach us how to handle false prophets (and apostles, and teachers, and Christs). We're going to need it.

By the way, it's not "many men." It's like, several hundred, I think. They just happen to talk big and wield inordinate influence.

Mary said...

Yeah, the "enforcing His Kingdom," bit caught my attention as well.

I don't really know what to think about these kinds of prophecies. I can relate to how you feel after reading something like this, though. Remember that you're not crazy or rebellious. I think that the doubts and questions are a normal part of detox.

Terrence said...

After reading your post and Bill Hammon's word, I find myself having the same exact reservations. Your sensitivity to the Spirit on this in my opinion is right on. There is nothing wrong with you!!

Thanks for the heads up.

Anonymous said...

You said "What I want to know is why does something like this still rattle me?"

It rattles me too, every time.

I have not been as bruised by such men as you and yours have been...but I have been hurt by this mentality and this mindset (which, I agree, is Very Wrong).

In my own life, I have found that the best defense against this is to let my discomfort give my heart wholeheartedly to God (and God alone) yet again. Sometimes, God even uses a rattling from a bad man for good in my relationship with Him.

Why? Because trust and giving my heart to Father always pleases him. (See David, Saul/Paul, Peter...Jesus himself). I have found great peace in this, in a variety of ambiguous circumstances.

If the "prophets" are right, I have every confidence that with such an attitude, God will lovingly and kindly give me the humility to be encouraged and to learn from it.

If they are wrong...well, sometimes I understand why God can be depicted as angry and vengeful. When I encounter those that are truly power-hungry/deceitful/manipulative, I am quite glad for his wrath.

So may you continue to be freed from the politics of guilt and may you be encouraged in your quest for truth and relationship!

And may Jesus continue to set people free.

Sue said...

I definitely do feel like there are changes afoot. I don't want to read this guy's words because I was into reading a lot of prophecy several years ago, and I don't feel like I can quite go there still without it rattling my box too much, and I'm fighting off a cold this morning so I don't want to go there.

But it does feels like many things are shifting spiritually (at least, it does to me). Perhaps God IS going to bring big changes in 2008, who knows? But whether some of us take that in our own zealous and ultimately violent hands and go about "enforcing his kingdom" makes me shiver a bit. So much freedom God gives us - why so much freedom??

Barb said...

anonymous, You are right, the authoratative tone puts questioning right off. He is not asking anyone else if he is right, at least no one that we can see. The website says it has 500 members. Not a lot but huge if you realize that you have to be the apostolic leader to belong. That means there are tons of people out there that believe this because they are in the organizations and churches of those men and women

Mary, thanks. I forget I'm still in detox except when these feelings are still there.

Terry, I find that there are a bunch of people that never actually read what the leaders of this movement are really saying. If they did, there might be some discernment.

Josh, it is good for me in that it still shows that I need to trust God to lead me as you said. Thanks

Sue, my husband did not want to read the prophecy either. Just did not want to go there right now.

Fred Shope said...

I don't know anything about this prophetic movement, but I did have some contact with people who followed Rushdooney and Gary North and their theonomy teachings back in the 80s. One question that comes to mind - Is the kingdom they will be enforcing be the one Jesus brought in that is based on love and grace, or the Old Testament kingdom that included such things as stoning rebellious children?

Marti G said...

Heh. I knew we had a lot in common. We used to be a part of their camp, years and years ago. Ugh.

Trust your heart, and do not fear.

Erin said...

Wow, yeah. I get heebie-jeebies from most of that stuff because for so long I lived my life by it. I can't believe it took me soooo long to realize that every "word" was always the same and they never produced much fruit (that I was aware of). The tone of so many of them is "war" and that really bothers me, too. I subscribed to the Elijah List for years, so I know what you are talking about.

I can only speak for myself, but I was taught that this stuff is authoritative...simply because it was what it was. All the "prophets" affirm the other prophets, and it becomes circular reasoning. Anyhow, the value placed on it in my tradition really made it hard to shake when I walked. As time has gone by, it has become easier, and I have learned that I hear what He wants me to hear and I don't need a middleman to tell me, for I have a Spirit, unlike the OT where prophecy was necessary.

This isn't to say it's ALL bad. I'm just really cautious about it. And I tend to worry more about the effects of attributing to God that which is from man.

Sarah said...

Here's my .02 for what it's worth. I think that often times prophetic people hear from God, but it gets filtered through their own human grid of understanding. So the interpretation and application are where we miss the mark. I think that our culture, our nationalism, and our own personal worldview gets in the way. (It is preferable to have access to many prophetic voices from many nations - because then the picture becomes a little clearer - the whole body of Christ contributing, not just us Americans).

This word from Bill Hammond seems to epitomize some of the issues that I see prevalent in the American church in particular: pride, empire and domination. I don't believe that is what God is like.

I do think God is interested in building His kingdom - but not in an imperialistic manner.

I do believe that God is speaking these days about becoming an 'apostolic' people - but this is embracing servanthood, pouring ourselves out as true fathers and mothers (who invest all they have into others, not seeking position for themselves) to ensure Christ is formed in others - rather than building their own kingdoms/ministries/empires. Scum of the earth apostolic, not super-star celebrity, totally-in-control apostolic.

I believe that most in America completely misunderstand what the apostolic is about... But we are in process, and God is gracious. (Ok, I'll step off my soapbox now.)

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the frustration we share is not because we have been deceived about what is true, but having tasted the authentic, even in rare brief moments, we continually yearn for it.

Tracy Simmons said...


I had to unsubscribe to that list a long time ago. I don't question the sincerity of many people's hearts on the list, but it just left a bad taste in my mouth on too many occasions.

Now it just makes me feel really sad for such misplaced zeal. I used to walk in so much of it myself that I can only feel pity when I see it now.


Anonymous said...

I mentioned the fact that it's a relatively small handful of leaders who talk this way mostly because I wanted to reassure you that you're not crazy. It's true that these folks have very wide influence, but I don't think it's as wide as it comes off. These are mostly Anglophones, for one, and a full 5/6 of the people on the planet don't speak English.

Plus, you know as well as I that there is in this "new apostolic" movement a certain false appeal to its own universality: "Everyone in the world is moving in this direction," they say, even as it is quite clear that everyone in the world is NOT moving that way.

In any case, measuring the right-ness of a thought by the number of people who think it true is a tyranny. Be free.

Barb said...

Co-heir, the kingdom that they are enforcing is the one where things get done in all strata's of life the way they think God wants it done. Much of the time it is not a love/grace message. And yes, Husband often said as we left and were maligned and shunned that he was glad they weren't burning those that opposed them at the stake yet. Back just a few hundred years ago, that would have been the case.
Malegra, I think there are many of us out there and many more to come

Erin, I wish I had kept the words spoken year after year - or better yet had the guts to ask why they did not come true. Actually I did get peeved at one point and then somehow buried the frustration to be able to continue on. How I wish I would have ranted then.

Sarah, your 2 cents worth should be a post in and of itself. This was really brilliant. - Your soapbox is welcome here.

RMacD, great quote. but part of the frustration still is the frustration of being decieved in the first place and how gullible I am to someone telling me 'the way it is supposed to be.'l

Tracy, My husband won't even look at it now. Maybe I should too but I feel that I am learning to discern through still reading this. I never allowed myself to question and now - except for this particular post - it has been fun for me.

Anonymous - I am in agreement that it is a small number. Thanks for keeping that forefront. In that it was my whole world, I need that stated over and over again. I really thought that 'everyone in the world' was going to come onboard. I loved your last line.
In any case, measuring the right-ness of a thought by the number of people who think it true is a tyranny. Be free.

Deb Ermter said...

There's nothing wrong with you:)

Jesus said "...my sheep hear my voice..."
Sounds to me like you know His voice. It's disturbing when the 'voice of a stranger' is gaining so much support. But God warned us that this would happen; that people will no longer be able to withstand sound doctrine... I'm not a teacher and so I don't pretend to understand the fullness of that warnng, but I do know that the simplicity of the Gospel is not very popular right now. In fact I'd say that talking about Jesus is sometimes met with a "gee that's nice, lets move on to something deeper' attitude. It's sad and drives me to prayer. Walking through this world the way Jesus taught us to is the hardest, most challenging thing to do. It's up-side-down. It's humility and forgiveness, and most of all it calls for absolute trust in God, without any guarentee that He will do things 'on earth as it is in heaven' the exact way we think He should.
I'm rambling now :) personally, my only hope is to hold on tight to Jesus; what He speakes in the quietness, and to trust that if there's something He wants me to see and understand, He will tell me. Jesus doesn't play mind games and He wants us to hear Him. He is in charge of our growth. Everyone who tries to take His place, well, they'll just have to sit down :)

I'm reading the Gospels right now...it's all there, imagine that!
Bless you

Tyler Dawn said...

Oh gosh Barb, I have this man's books on my shelf -- they were supposed to teach me how to be a "good and mature" prophet. Now I look at that stuff and cringe, but even three years ago I would have eaten that "word" up and asked for a second helping. Maybe some Susan Cummings or Cindy Jacobs for dessert!

Maybe part of the problem comes down to playing grown up games of war and politics when we are not commanded to do either. Jesus, Paul, Peter -- not one ever incorporated these things into their message and yet we are seeing this militant church message!

Jesus once told me this, "What kind of a man would allow his bride to fight for him?" I believe Abba would tell me something similar "What kind of a man would allow his little girl to do his fighting for him?"

Who is in control? Who has the power? Are we playing war in the schoolyard by the rules set down by our posturing arrogance or is God calling us to set the teachings of Jesus and His early followers to naught? I suspect the former and not the latter.

Anonymous said...

ugh...what a blast into the world of forced acceptance of a movement!! Who says such things are this way??? Is it just because a bunch of people agree?? What can be done...just let them be and move on!
We need more freedom of expression in the church.

foretastes said...

I think what's wrong with you is what's wrong with the rest of us folks that are desiring to simply follow and know Jesus... He is shaking the crap out of us and we're not comfortable with His process. Seems for me that all this old man's rubble is being shaken to the surface and it scares the hell out of me for what I am seeing. I detest seeing me for who I am... to the point where I fail to see what, who I am becoming in Him.

Not sure if this is making sense. I think I've lost a few brain cells in the shaking process.

Everything I thought I knew, that I thought I understood, that I thought I got rid of, that I thought was good to hold on to, is going through some testing (purification?) process. I am questioning everything... those I used to follow, the core of my very beliefs. And I take it that I am not alone. Good. Misery loves company... or something like that.

For some reason the Lord spared me from the prophetic charasmaniacal movements but there is all this other stuff that He is bent on destroying in me that I thought was dead. And I don't much like it.

So I think there's plenty wrong with all of us but Jesus is doing His thing on us so that we may become the sons and daughters that He and Abba intended. Through the shaking process we are seeing what we thought was life is actually death. The wheat is being separated from the chaff. It is a suffering for our own good so that in the end, when all else has fallen, only see Jesus.

Sorry for taking up so much ranting space on your blog but I couldn't help myself. :-) I bounced over from Tyler Dawn's blog. She's another good ranter!

Sue said...

Ah, Dave, I"m right there with ya, being shaken not stirred in God's giant martini glass :)

(That sounded much more cynical than I mean it to, LOL)

Barb said...

Deborah, thanks for commenting. You are so right. It is simple.

Tyler Dawn, the war speaches were always up front and prominent. That was one of the first things that I studied when I got out. Jesus calls us to be a bride, a friend, a brother and other such words. Not generals and soldiers. You would think that if that is how we were to act, Jesus would have used this.
Great Post today by the way, Everyone pop over and read it.

Dave a, ranting is allowed!! welcome. Shaking really is a good thing. just a little disconcerting.

Sue, FAVORITE DRINK!!! - that Martini....sigh