Post-Charismatic Evangelism

UPDATE: Here are those writing and linking to the questions raised in this blog:
Sarah @ Coffee Randoms: Thoughts on Evangelism
Jeff McQ @ Losing my Religion: Re-thinking Evangelism (and lots of other stuff) and Over-marketing the Watered-Down Version and How I Got Saved...
Ruth from Grains of Truth: Knocking on Heaven's Door
Co_Heir @ On the Journey: Evangelism
Also see Internet Monk's post on John Macarthur on TBN - watch the video and let me know what you think.
Andrew @ Hackman's Musings writes this: Evangelism



I think one of the hardest subjects for me to approach since having so much of what I formerly believed stripped away, is the subject of Evangelism.

I was raised a hard-core Fundamentalist. In every sermon (Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night) you would have the "plan of salvation" shared in case someone unknowingly wandered from off the street, came into your church and died that night and went to hell because someone did not share the "plan of salvation" with them. I even vaguely remember someone being fired over the fact that they did not share the "plan of salvation" often enough in their sermons. This salvation message was one of the fact of Hell, the plan for avoiding Hell, and the subsequent "sinners prayer" that would keep you out of Hell. Anything else in Christianity was just not really talked about.

Enter my years early in marriage - saved from Fundamentalism - and we understood salvation to be a way to a better, joyful, peaceful life. We would ask people if they wanted what we had. It was a bit of salvation from hell mixed in with a wonderful, meaningful life for the here and now.

Then finally in my Charismatic years I finally thought I had hit upon the greatest plan of salvation EVER!! Here in Charismatic land you could have all the "perks, bells and whistles." You could have your sins forgiven, be healed, prosper, do signs and wonders, be a leader and live a joyful, exciting purpose-filled life - all while signed up to be a part of the end time army that would ACTUALLY usher in the return of Jesus!!! We pitched the Christian life like those salesmen on late night TV. Your life would be amazing if you signed on the bottom line to become Jesus' disciple.

Darin Hufford puts it so well in his post, Gratefully Disillusioned, where he says

"I believe that Christianity has been marketed to the carnal nature of unbelievers. We successfully got people who would not have otherwise become a Christian to sign on the dotted line and join our religion. We did it by presenting "relationship with God" in a way that would appeal to power-hungry money mongers who want to escape the cold reality of life. We told people that God would financially prosper them. We told them that they would never get sick and if they did, God would make it go away. We've promised them that if anyone hurt them, their God would stick up for them and get revenge on their behalf. We convinced them that God would also give them godlike powers and they could dazzle their friends and family with magic tricks. We promised them that God would make sure they held a position of leadership in life where everyone would respect them and pay them honor. I've even seen different ministries claim that Christians have better sex than non-Christians. The list goes on and on. One by one, people signed up for Christianity. People who would not have otherwise given it a second look, found themselves strangely tempted with a religion that promised to fulfill their every carnal desire. The offer was just too good to be true."

(Read this excellent article as he goes on to say that we may not even have true Christians if this is what they signed up for.)

So here is my dilemma. If I am against using the "Hell card"as my "hook" in sharing my faith and I refuse to bend to the "hook" of the Jesus of the late night infomercials full of promises that never live up to their expectations, what am I left with? What exactly is my faith? How do I explain it to people? What is Evangelism? What did Jesus do with the disciples? What was this Kingdom of God that they shared about? What is the gospel - the "good news" to you and how would you share it with an unbeliever?

Another set of questions that interest me are these: Why did you become a Christian? What is your story? Did you sign up for the perks and if so, how is that going for you? Were you truly "drawn to God" in some way where the "perks" that I am talking about really did not matter?

If you have any thoughts about Evangelism (past or present)- please leave them in the comment section - or better yet - post your thoughts and link to it here. I'll update this post with links at the top if anyone wants to be added to the conversation.

A Sense of Purpose - Painting with a Grey Pallet

As I look towards the New Year this year I find myself struggling with something that is always nagging me in the back of my mind. I realize that it is again one of those "voices" from the past that I still have yet to shake. It is the voice that taunts me, ridicules me, and whispers that I am no longer building anything significant with my life.

In my old church, every act we did was significant. We were the elite of God's Army. We were the ones who heard his voice and we were the ones that were in the process of bringing the Kingdom of God to earth in this day - no in this hour.

Every act of kindness did not stand on its own. Instead, every act of kindness was a blow against the enemy's kingdom.

If you served anyone or anywhere in the church, you were supporting the advance of God's kingdom.

If you gave money, you were planting seed that would be returned 10 or lately 100 fold.

If you gave a gift to the pastors it was not simply a gift. No, you were laying your gift at the feet of the Apostles.

If you sang on the worship team or even just in your seat it was not just a simple act of adoration. Here, you were breaking through the heavens so that the Kingdom of God could come down.

If you prayed you were doing an important job, you were binding and loosing. You were causing something to take place in the heavenlies.

If you were a good parent or a good spouse you were discipling hundreds by your example.

If you were righteous at work - if you did a good job - you were in the process of taking over that secular job for the Kingdom of God.

If you made money in your secular job you were a part of the transferring of the wealth of the Gentles to the Kingdom.

If you kept your home and yard clean it was a witness to your neighbors and thus you were taking part in the great harvest of souls.

If you drove a nice car you were showing the prosperity of the Lord that was promised to the saints.

EVERYTHING WAS IMPORTANT!!!!

This has been the hardest mindset to shake. In a way, it was so hyped up that it felt like a drug. Coming off the drug has made me feel dull. Dry. Worthless. Of no value.

What does my life matter? Kindness is simply kindness. Giving is simply giving. Prayer is simply conversation and worship is an intimate experience. It is all so un-glorious to the side of me that used to get all her importance from what she did.

I seem to be painting in a pallet of gray as opposed to the brilliant colors that were used in the past.

Part of me, I'm sure the drug addict side of me, longs for the brilliant colors of just a few years ago. Those colors made me feel so important - so vital to the work of God.

And so today as I wrote this out I realize that I want to be somewhere else a year from today. Here is where I want to end up next year:

I want God to take this seemingly gray pallet of colors that I now have in my hand and, with me, paint a beautiful picture. I think if I don't give up - If I continue to be faithful with the brush and colors he has given me - that He will miraculously cause my picture to come to life in the most beautiful colors ever imagined. It will exude His brilliance and all who look upon this picture will understand that a miracle has been wrought. They will understand that the simple strokes of gray have been made into color only by His hand.

Upside Down Kingdom

I love what I am seeing in scripture lately. I love it when it rocks my world with it's upside down way of seeing the Kingdom.

Internet Monk had a link the other day to Greg Boyd's website where, starting in October, they are beginning a series of weeks looking at some of the parables of Jesus and how he turns the thinking of the day upside down. It is entitled: The Great Reversal - The Upside Down Kingdom of God. I went onto the site and just browsed the passages he uses and then especially the cultural context that Jesus spoke into. I urge you to do the same.

Some of the ones that really stood out to me was how the world then viewed the poor, sick and destitute people. Like I wrote yesterday, both the rich and the poor believed that God did not love the poor and had no desire to be around them. Your riches were proof that God was on your side and blessing you.

One thing that Boyd points out is the importance of being asked to a banquet. See, in that day to be asked to a banquet showed your status in the city. Even where you sat at the table would show your importance. So when Jesus tells the story of a man throwing a banquet for his friends and his friends coming up with a lame excuse to not attend, it was a major slap in the face of the host. You never turned down an invitation. It was a major honor in that time to be asked to a banquet. Someone was spending a ton of money on the food. Therefore, it would mean the end of your relationship if you declined - especially for such a lame reason. So when Jesus then said that the host gave instructions to his servant to go to the highways and byways to compel the outcasts to come to his banquet...it was a HUGE deal. The most interesting thing is the word compel. See, these people had to be compelled to come because in that culture, even if they were invited, they were supposed to turn down the invitation(!!!) because they were not favored enough of God. You would never accept the invitation, because to do so was dishonoring your host.

Just the idea that Jesus loves us so much that he compels us to come to Him. Even when we have screwed up so much that we can't see why he would want us to come. Plus, Boyd pointed out that, in actuality, there was enough food prepared that there would have been enough for the original guests and those that were invited later. (He doesn't hate the rich either)

The other one that really struck me was the passage where the Pharisees came to him with the disciples of John and accused Jesus of eating and drinking with the sinners (not necessarily those who sinned but this bunch that were labeled outcasts because of their disease or poverty or lifestyle) Boyd says that the word for eating with the sinners implies that Jesus was actually hosting banquets and inviting the oppressed in.

I had never thought of Jesus hosting a banquet. I just always saw him as having no home therefore he always attended someone elses' house. But just the thought that Jesus hosted these people warmed my heart. No wonder the Pharisees got so bent out of shape. Jesus was not just ministering to these people, he was honoring them. And they (the Pharisees) were not getting invited to sit at the important seats.

I also loved the one where he was eating at a banquet at some Pharisee's house (the last one he was invited to by the way! ;P) Jesus told a story and began it with something like this. "Suppose you were a shepherd and had 100 sheep. You lost one....." He goes on from there. But the funny thing was that he said, "Suppose you were a shepherd." See, shepherds were one of those 'sinner' type people. They were the ones that God did not like. It would be like sitting down with a bunch of prophets, pastors and self proclaimed apostles today and starting a story like this; "Suppose you were a male prostitute..." You can hear the silence! "How dare he!!!"

I love the heart of Jesus today and want him to show me some more of his upside down kingdom as it relates to my own life.



A beer to Naked Pastor for use of his brilliant comic.

Kingdom of God - Good News to the Poor

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has
anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
Luke 14:18-19


Good verse huh?

Before we left our CLB our leader preached a series of messages on "The Good News to the Poor." It drove my husband nuts because in the prosperity gospel that was being presented, the good news to the poor was that, because of the cross they did not have to be poor any longer. God had come through Jesus so that we no longer needed to be sick or poor. In my husband’s opinion (and now mine) the speaker was totally missing the point and even distorting the true gospel.

I have below a portion of the letter that he (Husband) wrote to our leader. See how it truly displays the heart of God towards us as opposed to the twisted words of the "other" gospel that God wants you rich.


Good news to the poor:

In the context of the day during the life and times of Jesus, if you had wealth, you were viewed of having the favor of God in your life. God was your friend, you were blessed, God was near you and like/approved of you.

If you were poor however, God was not near you, you were not favored of God. He obviously was not pleased with you and, plain, did not like you. You had no hope of God’s favor or His visitation. (In reality, it was a wide pendulum swing to the view of wealth and God’s favor, to the point of error.) The poor walked as second class citizens with the knowledge that God did not favor them, bless them and love them because of them and their sin. The rich were blessed, but they were cursed. There was little hope of anything else.

So here comes Jesus, and he preached “good news” to the poor. As a poor person, you would hear this, and your first reaction was almost disbelief. “You mean that God is coming to visit me?” “God noticed me?” “God is pleased and wants to be with me?” “I too can be favored and blessed by God?”

The answer Jesus brought to the people asking these questions was: “Yes!” The religious leaders would preach “No,” but Jesus was changing it!

To the Pharisees it was the religion and law of the day, but Jesus was preaching a different ‘good news: “God is coming near, the favor of the Lord is near, to you, to all who will believe.”

Just as Jesus healed the lame man whose sins he had forgiven to prove the same, he healed the multitudes to prove the same: God had come near them. “Believe and receive! The Kingdom of God has come, to you!”

It was a paradigm shift to the people of the day who were rejected because they were poor. God would not visit them and they were not blessed. Jesus came to break that theology/practice/understanding of the people. Its not about poverty/money, but God is available to the poor! He likes the poor and wants to dwell with them and be with them. They are being invited to participate in His Kingdom.

So he sent out his boys (disciples) to the villages and towns, the highways and hedges, announcing that the Kingdom of God has come (to them!), ie: good news!

We too can preach the same:
God has come. He has favor for you.
God has come to you. You can come to God. He will dwell with you and you can dwell with him.

This is the Good News to the Poor!!

The Kingdom of God - A Word Study

I have been immersed in Kingdom Dominion theology over the past 20 years or so. I am now just starting to decide what I believe about it. In so many ways I keep surprising myself with Truth that is new to me. I feel like a 2 year old who has just discovered that they have a belly button and are simply amazed by this fact. Everyone else around them is underwhelmed at the discovery but the 2 year old is simply astounded by this great fact.

I am especially feeling that way as I am reading through RobbyMac’s new book, "Post-Charismatic?. " I kept interrupting the Steelers Game last night as I read with amazement to my husband how all of what we were taught as ‘new truth’ was being taught years and years ago. Boy, was I dumb to have not picked up a church history book all these years. - (To his credit Marshall had always said, “Honey, this stuff is really not new.” See, he likes history and actually learned something in Seminary.) (Seminary training was never really valued in our CLB - which by the way is a mark of a toxic group.)

But the other night I was wide awake for some reason so I decided to use my Parsons Quick Verse program and list all the times that the word “kingdom” is used in the New Testament (and one Old Test. verse) – just to see what really is there. (side note: Quick Verse is sooo easy. you just type in a word and it lists all the times it is used. Then you can check out what it means in the Greek or Hebrew)

Below is a brief overview of what I found. It is long so if you just want what I gathered out of the verses – just scroll through the highlighted parts. I’m sorry, but I don’t see ANYTHING that would clearly support the idea that the Church is to be active bringing in the Kingdom of God with the government of Apostles and Prophets? You can read through it and see what you think. What is there though, regarding what the Kingdom of God is, was really good.


This Old Testament verse was the most famous verse taught to back up the whole apostolic/governmental movement.

(Isa 9:6 , 7 NIV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

But wait a minute: Notice that it says the zeal of the Lord will accomplish this. Not Apostles, not gifts, not the Church.

Then in the New Testament the first mention of the Kingdom says it must start with repentance.
Jesus and John (Mat 3:2 NIV) and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (Mat 4:17 NIV) From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

On to the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 5:3 NIV) "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven..and vs. 10: Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus made it clear that we would never make it on our own: (Mat 5:20 NIV) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus decided to show us how: (Mat 6:10 NIV) your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

We are to seek it: (Mat 6:33 NIV) But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

There are those who will be blocked: (Mat 7:20, 21 NIV) Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

When Jesus preached about the kingdom signs and wonders accompanied him; (Mat 9:35 NIV) Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

His disciples were to proclaim it: (Mat 10:7, 8 NIV) As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

The Kingdom is upside down from the way you would imagine: (Mat 11:11 NIV) I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I’m honestly not sure what this one means but it was preached about A LOT:
(Mat 11:12 NIV) From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.
I think you have to read this through the upside down lens of Jesus’ life. Forceful men who look like servants maybe?

Then lots of parables - some easily understood - some harder:

1) Matt 13:24 like a man who sowed seed and an enemy sowed weeds. The master said to let both grow together until the end. Then the harvesters would sort them out

2) Mtt 13:33 It is like the mustard seed. A small thing produces a huge thing

3) Matt 13:33 It is like yeast -- a little bit changes the whole thing
vs. 44 like a treasure that a man finds, buries it again and sells all he has to buy it

4) vs. 45 like a pearl

5) vs. 47 like a net for a fisherman - gathers good and bad fish that need to be sorted

When Peter believed and proclaimed that Jesus was the Son God the keys of the kingdom were given him. (Whatever that means)

The disciples saw the kingdom come (Mat 16:28 NIV) I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Upside down kingdom (Mat 18:1-3 NIV) At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


Belongs to the children: (Mat 19:14 NIV) Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Hard for the rich (Mat 19:24 NIV) Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom does not look fair: (Mat 20:1 NIV) "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. (didn’t pay everyone the same)

Values obedience: Won’t see who you were expecting: (Mat 21:31 NIV) "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Jesus’ prophesy about the Kingdom: (Mat 24:14 NIV) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Need to be prepared: (Mat 25:1 NIV) "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

About those who get to enter the final kingdom: (Mat 25:34, 35, 36 NIV) "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

There will be wine!! (Mat 26:29 NIV) I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

It happens with little effort from us (Mark 4:26-29 NIV) He also said, "This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. All by itself the soil produces grain--first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come."

My favorite: (Luke 17:20, 21 NIV) Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Jesus said his kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD (John 18:36 NIV) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Even till the very end his disciples did not get it - just before he disappeared out of sight they were asking when he was going to bring it in: (John 18:36 NIV) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Maybe they started to get it here: (Acts 8:12 NIV) But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

And the kingdom is (drum roll please....): (Rom 14:17 NIV) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

hmmm????(1 Cor 4:20 NIV) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

(1 Cor 15:50 NIV) I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Lots of passages like this one on those who will not inherit the Kingdom: (Eph 5:5 NIV) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

So that's what I learned. I just failed to find the whole "next generation of really amazing, gifted glow in the dark kind of people that are governed by truly amazing apostles with words directly from God who will usher in the coming of the Kingdom of God in the final days after a great harvest. Maybe I need to keep reading but it was certainly not here - that is for sure.

The Kingdom of God is Not For Sale

And sometimes I really do wonder if it is all about the Money! (I could give you more links but then my blood pressure goes so high)

It takes only a brief glimpse of the websites of the men and women from the Apostolic streams before you find yourself consistently hitting your head against the same thing.

Money.

"We need more of it. We need to find the roadblocks in our lives that are hindering the wealth transfer that is supposed to come into the ‘kingdom.’ The gates need to be opened. You seed needs to be sowed (here of course.) The kingdom needs both kings and priests. The Kingdom of God needs money to finance it. You need to partner with us." They have MARKETPLACE APOSTLES!!!

thinking to herself in true Jim Gaffigan style......I wonder if James or John was one of those. Maybe Lazarus - he was wealthy enough to have a home where his sisters lived with him....I know!!!! - Zacchaeus, when he got saved become one. Yes that is it. I should write a book and go on tour)

Money, Money, Money.

If they don’t state it upfront you can be sure they always get around to it.

They have the gall to quote Paul. Paul, who never lived the good life, who thanked people for their offerings while he was in prison. Paul who commended churches for their giving out of their significant need themselves. They make Paul their spokesman. How dare they?

I hate to border on bitterness - but when it comes to this subject I boil.

This is a deal breaker with me. I instantly distrust a ministry that participates in this crap. Oh, I have heard all the excuses. I know all the rationale and reasoning. Remember, I lived in thier camp.

So don’t try to tell me that you are raising money for the Kingdom of God and then spend it on yourself. Why not be real? Tell the truth.

Try this as an example of honesty:

I want to do this service for you. I want to teach you this, provide you with this or offer this. You won’t get a better seat at my conferences. I won’t pray for your family. I won’t give you special prophetic words. If you give me money I will tell you exactly what I am going to spend it on. I won’t change my mind without asking your permission. If you gave it for one purpose and I decide to do something else, I will give it back to you.

If the Kingdom of God sprouts out of this transaction - then all the better but I am not going to offer the Kingdom of God for sale here. The Kingdom of God is not to be purchased, bought, bartered, or bribed. It is not to be coerced, threatened, manipulated or begged for. The Kingdom of God is not a commodity. I will not offer it for sale and you will promise not to try to purchase it from me.

If you want to put seed into the Kingdom of God, take the money and go and DO something yourself. Love someone. Feed someone. Give to those who have nothing.

There ends my rant for this evening.